The Persuaders

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

When Moore and Lee Marvin were filming "Shout at the Devil"(1976) they got into a fist fight. Combat veteran and veteran of untold bar fights Marvin got his ass kicked by ex captain of
Intelligence Moore, Lee mistaking Roger for a soft upper class toff. Instead he had crossed sword's with a street copper's son, and as Lee noted, "punching Moore was like hitting granite."

I heard that story before and I always had a hard time believing that anyone (let alone Sir Roger Moore) could beat up the grizzled Lee Marvin. I wonder if Marvin was drunk that day, as he often was. Though I would have thought even a drunk Marvin could beat up Moore. If it was Connery maybe it would have been a different story. But hey, if they say it happened then I guess it did happen. Nothing again Sir Rog - I love the guy! Wonderful self-deprecating sense of humor, great story teller, and an excellent James Bond that was the perfect fit for the 70s and 80s.

[Luther's nephew Dobie]

When Moore and Lee Marvin were filming "Shout at the Devil"(1976) they got into a fist fight. Combat veteran and veteran of untold bar fights Marvin got his ass kicked by ex captain of
Intelligence Moore, Lee mistaking Roger for a soft upper class toff. Instead he had crossed sword's with a street copper's son, and as Lee noted, "punching Moore was like hitting granite."

I heard that story before and I always had a hard time believing that anyone (let alone Sir Roger Moore) could beat up the grizzled Lee Marvin. I wonder if Marvin was drunk that day, as he often was. Though I would have thought even a drunk Marvin could beat up Moore. If it was Connery maybe it would have been a different story. But hey, if they say it happened then I guess it did happen. Nothing again Sir Rog - I love the guy! Wonderful self-deprecating sense of humor, great story teller, and an excellent James Bond that was the perfect fit for the 70s and 80s.

You make a good argument but Marvin admitted he misjudged Moore the man and payed for it. A large man like Moore could do a lot of damage if he gets his licks in
and as you suggested Lee must have been drunk, else he wouldn't potentially put the entire movie production in jeopardy.

Roger held his own and more with all the legendary hell raisers on the set of The Wild Geese(1978), I remember Time magazine at the time covered their doings during
filming as it attracted attention around the world and they were some of my favorite stars.
I seem to recall - it was 40 years ago - the (at the end of their rope) local coppers negotiated a deal where the cast was restricted to either a single bar or a designated street block because of
all the fighting as Moore, Burton, Harris and the lesser lights seemed determined to impregnate every female within 20 miles, their menfolk not amused.

It was understandable that deep in the South African outback where nothing ever happened that this production featuring the biggest stars of British Hollywood would attract
some interest on behalf of the local female population who otherwise were stuck with Heinze the farmer.

The irate producers, driven crazy by the actors, retaliated by creating and shooting a scene in the morning of the boys being put thru their paces by a physical training instructor.
Every one of them was either still drunk or horribly hung over, with the results you'd expect, as Burton described it to Dick Cavett.

I bet this stuff never happened on Baywatch.

[Chris109]

When Moore and Lee Marvin were filming "Shout at the Devil"(1976) they got into a fist fight. Combat veteran and veteran of untold bar fights Marvin got his ass kicked by ex captain of
Intelligence Moore, Lee mistaking Roger for a soft upper class toff. Instead he had crossed sword's with a street copper's son, and as Lee noted, "punching Moore was like hitting granite."

I heard that story before and I always had a hard time believing that anyone (let alone Sir Roger Moore) could beat up the grizzled Lee Marvin. I wonder if Marvin was drunk that day, as he often was. Though I would have thought even a drunk Marvin could beat up Moore. If it was Connery maybe it would have been a different story. But hey, if they say it happened then I guess it did happen. Nothing again Sir Rog - I love the guy! Wonderful self-deprecating sense of humor, great story teller, and an excellent James Bond that was the perfect fit for the 70s and 80s.

You make a good argument but Marvin admitted he misjudged Moore the man and payed for it. A large man like Moore could do a lot of damage if he gets his licks in
and as you suggested Lee must have been drunk, else he wouldn't potentially put the entire movie production in jeopardy.

Roger held his own and more with all the legendary hell raisers on the set of The Wild Geese(1978), I remember Time magazine at the time covered their doings during
filming as it attracted attention around the world and they were some of my favorite stars.
I seem to recall - it was 40 years ago - the (at the end of their rope) local coppers negotiated a deal where the cast was restricted to either a single bar or a designated street block because of
all the fighting as Moore, Burton, Harris and the lesser lights seemed determined to impregnate every female within 20 miles, their menfolk not amused.

It was understandable that deep in the South African outback where nothing ever happened that this production featuring the biggest stars of British Hollywood would attract
some interest on behalf of the local female population who otherwise were stuck with Heinze the farmer.

The irate producers, driven crazy by the actors, retaliated by creating and shooting a scene in the morning of the boys being put thru their paces by a physical training instructor.
Every one of them was either still drunk or horribly hung over, with the results you'd expect, as Burton described it to Dick Cavett.

The late 80's /early 90's were soooo much fun. Way back when, the only day we "took off" was Tuesday. No bars had any real specials. It was the day for recuperating.

[Pahonu]

When Moore and Lee Marvin were filming "Shout at the Devil"(1976) they got into a fist fight. Combat veteran and veteran of untold bar fights Marvin got his ass kicked by ex captain of
Intelligence Moore, Lee mistaking Roger for a soft upper class toff. Instead he had crossed sword's with a street copper's son, and as Lee noted, "punching Moore was like hitting granite."

I heard that story before and I always had a hard time believing that anyone (let alone Sir Roger Moore) could beat up the grizzled Lee Marvin. I wonder if Marvin was drunk that day, as he often was. Though I would have thought even a drunk Marvin could beat up Moore. If it was Connery maybe it would have been a different story. But hey, if they say it happened then I guess it did happen. Nothing again Sir Rog - I love the guy! Wonderful self-deprecating sense of humor, great story teller, and an excellent James Bond that was the perfect fit for the 70s and 80s.

You make a good argument but Marvin admitted he misjudged Moore the man and payed for it. A large man like Moore could do a lot of damage if he gets his licks in
and as you suggested Lee must have been drunk, else he wouldn't potentially put the entire movie production in jeopardy.

Roger held his own and more with all the legendary hell raisers on the set of The Wild Geese(1978), I remember Time magazine at the time covered their doings during
filming as it attracted attention around the world and they were some of my favorite stars.
I seem to recall - it was 40 years ago - the (at the end of their rope) local coppers negotiated a deal where the cast was restricted to either a single bar or a designated street block because of
all the fighting as Moore, Burton, Harris and the lesser lights seemed determined to impregnate every female within 20 miles, their menfolk not amused.

It was understandable that deep in the South African outback where nothing ever happened that this production featuring the biggest stars of British Hollywood would attract
some interest on behalf of the local female population who otherwise were stuck with Heinze the farmer.

The irate producers, driven crazy by the actors, retaliated by creating and shooting a scene in the morning of the boys being put thru their paces by a physical training instructor.
Every one of them was either still drunk or horribly hung over, with the results you'd expect, as Burton described it to Dick Cavett.

I bet this stuff never happened on Baywatch.

There were no fights in my two years of production on Baywatch, but there were many days when we wrapped in less than 10 hours so we single crew went out with the young female extras in the evening. I had more than a few good times. It sounds cynical as hell now, but back then we used to look at the female extras in their bikinis lying on the sand, and call out who had breast implants and who was natural. It was strikingly obvious. They were all beautiful, but this was the beginning of a massive wave of enhancement for on-screen women. Not that it matters, but I felt a little bad about the pressure they felt to get surgery or be bypassed.

[Luther's nephew Dobie]

When Moore and Lee Marvin were filming "Shout at the Devil"(1976) they got into a fist fight. Combat veteran and veteran of untold bar fights Marvin got his ass kicked by ex captain of
Intelligence Moore, Lee mistaking Roger for a soft upper class toff. Instead he had crossed sword's with a street copper's son, and as Lee noted, "punching Moore was like hitting granite."

I heard that story before and I always had a hard time believing that anyone (let alone Sir Roger Moore) could beat up the grizzled Lee Marvin. I wonder if Marvin was drunk that day, as he often was. Though I would have thought even a drunk Marvin could beat up Moore. If it was Connery maybe it would have been a different story. But hey, if they say it happened then I guess it did happen. Nothing again Sir Rog - I love the guy! Wonderful self-deprecating sense of humor, great story teller, and an excellent James Bond that was the perfect fit for the 70s and 80s.

You make a good argument but Marvin admitted he misjudged Moore the man and payed for it. A large man like Moore could do a lot of damage if he gets his licks in
and as you suggested Lee must have been drunk, else he wouldn't potentially put the entire movie production in jeopardy.

Roger held his own and more with all the legendary hell raisers on the set of The Wild Geese(1978), I remember Time magazine at the time covered their doings during
filming as it attracted attention around the world and they were some of my favorite stars.
I seem to recall - it was 40 years ago - the (at the end of their rope) local coppers negotiated a deal where the cast was restricted to either a single bar or a designated street block because of
all the fighting as Moore, Burton, Harris and the lesser lights seemed determined to impregnate every female within 20 miles, their menfolk not amused.

It was understandable that deep in the South African outback where nothing ever happened that this production featuring the biggest stars of British Hollywood would attract
some interest on behalf of the local female population who otherwise were stuck with Heinze the farmer.

The irate producers, driven crazy by the actors, retaliated by creating and shooting a scene in the morning of the boys being put thru their paces by a physical training instructor.
Every one of them was either still drunk or horribly hung over, with the results you'd expect, as Burton described it to Dick Cavett.

I bet this stuff never happened on Baywatch.

There were no fights in my two years of production on Baywatch, but there were many days when we wrapped in less than 10 hours so we single crew went out with the young female extras in the evening. I had more than a few good times. It sounds cynical as hell now, but back then we used to look at the female extras in their bikinis lying on the sand, and call out who had breast implants and who was natural. It was strikingly obvious. They were all beautiful, but this was the beginning of a massive wave of enhancement for on-screen women. Not that it matters, but I felt a little bad about the pressure they felt to get surgery or be bypassed.

I'm not a hypocrite, I would have been checking out those extras as well, at any given moment the set must have featured the largest concentration of beautiful women in California.
Dedicated, serious female actresses must have been angered when they got bypassed because they hadn't gotten the implants.
I'm surprised no stars have written about that as yet.
Everybody Loves Raymond did a very funny take off of this when Debra stuffs her shirt and tells an astonished and pleased Ray she had her breasts enlarged.

Boy are we off topic here, I am one of the worst offenders for tangents, if somebody starts a thread and puts work into it I try to respect that but too often fail.
I will try to do better but know I will still stray, as sometimes Magnum Mania seems to me like a large group of friends in a tavern like McSorleys riffing off each other's stories
which is a big part of the fun.

Just got COVID, shakes, fever, congestion, blurry vision, joint pain, etc. Worst illness of my life, slept for 24 straight hours,but hey now I get to be part of the club like most everyone else.
Feel a tad better but still choking, hard to walk, not whining just saying in case I disappear for a while.
Shoot, there I go on a tangent again.
Back to The Persuaders.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

sometimes Magnum Mania seems to me like a large group of friends in a tavern like McSorleys riffing off each other's stories
which is a big part of the fun.

Would that be Marty McSorley's tavern??

Just got COVID, shakes, fever, congestion, blurry vision, joint pain, etc. Worst illness of my life, slept for 24 straight hours,but hey now I get to be part of the club like most everyone else.
Feel a tad better but still choking, hard to walk, not whining just saying in case I disappear for a while.
Shoot, there I go on a tangent again.
Back to The Persuaders.

Oh boy, hang in there brother. This too shall pass. Now you really are a part of the club. Are your taste buds and smells still intact? The dead giveaway for me that I had gotten Covid was when I lost complete smell not for a day or two (as had happened in years past during bad flu seasons) but for a week... and then two weeks... and then.... Anyway, when I finally got my taste and smell back it took a REALLY long time for food to start tasting good again. Eggs and coffee in particular (which are a breakfast staple for me) as well as certain fruits and veggies. I'm talking 6 months, maybe more. Take care of yourself and get well.

[Pahonu]

When Moore and Lee Marvin were filming "Shout at the Devil"(1976) they got into a fist fight. Combat veteran and veteran of untold bar fights Marvin got his ass kicked by ex captain of
Intelligence Moore, Lee mistaking Roger for a soft upper class toff. Instead he had crossed sword's with a street copper's son, and as Lee noted, "punching Moore was like hitting granite."

I heard that story before and I always had a hard time believing that anyone (let alone Sir Roger Moore) could beat up the grizzled Lee Marvin. I wonder if Marvin was drunk that day, as he often was. Though I would have thought even a drunk Marvin could beat up Moore. If it was Connery maybe it would have been a different story. But hey, if they say it happened then I guess it did happen. Nothing again Sir Rog - I love the guy! Wonderful self-deprecating sense of humor, great story teller, and an excellent James Bond that was the perfect fit for the 70s and 80s.

You make a good argument but Marvin admitted he misjudged Moore the man and payed for it. A large man like Moore could do a lot of damage if he gets his licks in
and as you suggested Lee must have been drunk, else he wouldn't potentially put the entire movie production in jeopardy.

Roger held his own and more with all the legendary hell raisers on the set of The Wild Geese(1978), I remember Time magazine at the time covered their doings during
filming as it attracted attention around the world and they were some of my favorite stars.
I seem to recall - it was 40 years ago - the (at the end of their rope) local coppers negotiated a deal where the cast was restricted to either a single bar or a designated street block because of
all the fighting as Moore, Burton, Harris and the lesser lights seemed determined to impregnate every female within 20 miles, their menfolk not amused.

It was understandable that deep in the South African outback where nothing ever happened that this production featuring the biggest stars of British Hollywood would attract
some interest on behalf of the local female population who otherwise were stuck with Heinze the farmer.

The irate producers, driven crazy by the actors, retaliated by creating and shooting a scene in the morning of the boys being put thru their paces by a physical training instructor.
Every one of them was either still drunk or horribly hung over, with the results you'd expect, as Burton described it to Dick Cavett.

I bet this stuff never happened on Baywatch.

There were no fights in my two years of production on Baywatch, but there were many days when we wrapped in less than 10 hours so we single crew went out with the young female extras in the evening. I had more than a few good times. It sounds cynical as hell now, but back then we used to look at the female extras in their bikinis lying on the sand, and call out who had breast implants and who was natural. It was strikingly obvious. They were all beautiful, but this was the beginning of a massive wave of enhancement for on-screen women. Not that it matters, but I felt a little bad about the pressure they felt to get surgery or be bypassed.

I'm not a hypocrite, I would have been checking out those extras as well, at any given moment the set must have featured the largest concentration of beautiful women in California.
Dedicated, serious female actresses must have been angered when they got bypassed because they hadn't gotten the implants.
I'm surprised no stars have written about that as yet.
Everybody Loves Raymond did a very funny take off of this when Debra stuffs her shirt and tells an astonished and pleased Ray she had her breasts enlarged.

Boy are we off topic here, I am one of the worst offenders for tangents, if somebody starts a thread and puts work into it I try to respect that but too often fail.
I will try to do better but know I will still stray, as sometimes Magnum Mania seems to me like a large group of friends in a tavern like McSorleys riffing off each other's stories
which is a big part of the fun.

Just got COVID, shakes, fever, congestion, blurry vision, joint pain, etc. Worst illness of my life, slept for 24 straight hours,but hey now I get to be part of the club like most everyone else.
Feel a tad better but still choking, hard to walk, not whining just saying in case I disappear for a while.
Shoot, there I go on a tangent again.
Back to The Persuaders.

Hey Dobie,
Hope you feel better soon. No worries about the tangents. If someone calls it out, which doesn’t happen that often, I usually rein it in, but I think you are correct about friends sharing stories. I enjoy reading all the interesting experiences members have had, whether related to MPI or not.

[Chris109]

When Moore and Lee Marvin were filming "Shout at the Devil"(1976) they got into a fist fight. Combat veteran and veteran of untold bar fights Marvin got his ass kicked by ex captain of
Intelligence Moore, Lee mistaking Roger for a soft upper class toff. Instead he had crossed sword's with a street copper's son, and as Lee noted, "punching Moore was like hitting granite."

I heard that story before and I always had a hard time believing that anyone (let alone Sir Roger Moore) could beat up the grizzled Lee Marvin. I wonder if Marvin was drunk that day, as he often was. Though I would have thought even a drunk Marvin could beat up Moore. If it was Connery maybe it would have been a different story. But hey, if they say it happened then I guess it did happen. Nothing again Sir Rog - I love the guy! Wonderful self-deprecating sense of humor, great story teller, and an excellent James Bond that was the perfect fit for the 70s and 80s.

You make a good argument but Marvin admitted he misjudged Moore the man and payed for it. A large man like Moore could do a lot of damage if he gets his licks in
and as you suggested Lee must have been drunk, else he wouldn't potentially put the entire movie production in jeopardy.

Roger held his own and more with all the legendary hell raisers on the set of The Wild Geese(1978), I remember Time magazine at the time covered their doings during
filming as it attracted attention around the world and they were some of my favorite stars.
I seem to recall - it was 40 years ago - the (at the end of their rope) local coppers negotiated a deal where the cast was restricted to either a single bar or a designated street block because of
all the fighting as Moore, Burton, Harris and the lesser lights seemed determined to impregnate every female within 20 miles, their menfolk not amused.

It was understandable that deep in the South African outback where nothing ever happened that this production featuring the biggest stars of British Hollywood would attract
some interest on behalf of the local female population who otherwise were stuck with Heinze the farmer.

The irate producers, driven crazy by the actors, retaliated by creating and shooting a scene in the morning of the boys being put thru their paces by a physical training instructor.
Every one of them was either still drunk or horribly hung over, with the results you'd expect, as Burton described it to Dick Cavett.

I bet this stuff never happened on Baywatch.

There were no fights in my two years of production on Baywatch, but there were many days when we wrapped in less than 10 hours so we single crew went out with the young female extras in the evening. I had more than a few good times. It sounds cynical as hell now, but back then we used to look at the female extras in their bikinis lying on the sand, and call out who had breast implants and who was natural. It was strikingly obvious. They were all beautiful, but this was the beginning of a massive wave of enhancement for on-screen women. Not that it matters, but I felt a little bad about the pressure they felt to get surgery or be bypassed.

I'm not a hypocrite, I would have been checking out those extras as well, at any given moment the set must have featured the largest concentration of beautiful women in California.
Dedicated, serious female actresses must have been angered when they got bypassed because they hadn't gotten the implants.
I'm surprised no stars have written about that as yet.
Everybody Loves Raymond did a very funny take off of this when Debra stuffs her shirt and tells an astonished and pleased Ray she had her breasts enlarged.

Boy are we off topic here, I am one of the worst offenders for tangents, if somebody starts a thread and puts work into it I try to respect that but too often fail.
I will try to do better but know I will still stray, as sometimes Magnum Mania seems to me like a large group of friends in a tavern like McSorleys riffing off each other's stories
which is a big part of the fun.

Just got COVID, shakes, fever, congestion, blurry vision, joint pain, etc. Worst illness of my life, slept for 24 straight hours, but hey now I get to be part of the club like most everyone else.
Feel a tad better but still choking, hard to walk, not whining just saying in case I disappear for a while.
Shoot, there I go on a tangent again.
Back to The Persuaders.

Yup. The 'vaccine', (just like abstinence for pregnancy) works every time.

I think I had 'The Vid' a few months ago. Went to the doctor after not being able to swallow without hurting for a few days. Doc asked if I wanted to take the test. I asked him if it was positive, then what? He said, "I'll tell you the same thing I would with anyone who had the flu."
For the sore throat? He said to use the same thing my mother would have us do 50+ years ago: salt and warm water gargle.

[Chris109]

This comment does not have to do with the Persuaders, but with The Saint. Was watching an episode from season 5, The Man Who Liked Lions. Basically, about a guy (Tiberio Magadino) who was hung up on ancient Rome. But something Tiberio (played by Peter Wyngarde) said could be said today.

"I'm a great admirer of the early Roman culture. It had much to recommend it.
Force, compulsion, discipline, and strength. At least it produced men. REAL men.
And like our sick, decadent society today? What does it produce?
Long-haired, self-absorbed, effeminates."

But, it's not like Rome wasn't also sick and decadent.

Now, back to The Persuaders.

[Pahonu]

This comment does not have to do with the Persuaders, but with The Saint. Was watching an episode from season 5, The Man Who Liked Lions. Basically, about a guy (Tiberio Magadino) who was hung up on ancient Rome. But something Tiberio (played by Peter Wyngarde) said could be said today.

"I'm a great admirer of the early Roman culture. It had much to recommend it.
Force, compulsion, discipline, and strength. At least it produced men. REAL men.
And like our sick, decadent society today? What does it produce?
Long-haired, self-absorbed, effeminates."

But, it's not like Rome wasn't also sick and decadent.

Now, back to The Persuaders.

The quote from the series about REAL men in Roman culture seems overly simplistic and based on later perspectives more than on the record of Roman society itself. Sexual attitudes and behaviors in ancient Roman were incredibly different from those of the last century or so. Prostitution was legal, public, and quite widespread. Paintings that would be described as pornographic today were often featured among the art collections in respectable upperclass households.

It was also considered natural and not at all unusual for men to be sexually attracted to teen-aged youths of both sexes. The terms "Homosexual" and "heterosexual" were not the opposite poles on the spectrum of Roman thinking about sexuality. In fact, there are no Latin words for these concepts.

There was no moral judgement made of the man who enjoyed sex acts with either women or men as long as they were of lower social status. While the perception of effeminacy was often denounced, sex with male prostitutes or slaves was not regarded as improper or even a sign of lack of masculinity.

Later Christian writers denounced all these concepts and behaviors as immoral, particularly that the Romans had more fluid gender boundaries than even the ancient Greeks. Our current Western society still seems to reflect this bias in analysis of Greek and a Roman culture. It’s a very interesting and incredibly complex topic.

As a history professor and social studies teacher, I find the clash between the United States founding as a democratic republic inspired by the societies of ancient Athens and Rome, with the Judeo-Christian world view held by many American citizens today, to be utterly fascinating.

[Chris109]

This comment does not have to do with the Persuaders, but with The Saint. Was watching an episode from season 5, The Man Who Liked Lions. Basically, about a guy (Tiberio Magadino) who was hung up on ancient Rome. But something Tiberio (played by Peter Wyngarde) said could be said today.

"I'm a great admirer of the early Roman culture. It had much to recommend it.
Force, compulsion, discipline, and strength. At least it produced men. REAL men.
And like our sick, decadent society today? What does it produce?
Long-haired, self-absorbed, effeminates."

But, it's not like Rome wasn't also sick and decadent.

Now, back to The Persuaders.

The quote from the series about REAL men in Roman culture seems overly simplistic and based on later perspectives more than on the record of Roman society itself. Sexual attitudes and behaviors in ancient Roman were incredibly different from those of the last century or so. Prostitution was legal, public, and quite widespread. Paintings that would be described as pornographic today were often featured among the art collections in respectable upperclass households.

It was also considered natural and not at all unusual for men to be sexually attracted to teen-aged youths of both sexes. The terms "Homosexual" and "heterosexual" were not the opposite poles on the spectrum of Roman thinking about sexuality. In fact, there are no Latin words for these concepts.

There was no moral judgement made of the man who enjoyed sex acts with either women or men as long as they were of lower social status. While the perception of effeminacy was often denounced, sex with male prostitutes or slaves was not regarded as improper or even a sign of lack of masculinity.

Later Christian writers denounced all these concepts and behaviors as immoral, particularly that the Romans had more fluid gender boundaries than even the ancient Greeks. Our current Western society still seems to reflect this bias in analysis of Greek and a Roman culture. It’s a very interesting and incredibly complex topic.

As a history professor and social studies teacher, I find the clash between the United States founding as a democratic republic inspired by the societies of ancient Athens and Rome, with the Judeo-Christian world view held by many American citizens today, to be utterly fascinating.

I was basically referring to the feminization of the males today. Toxic masculinity is a term that is thrown about. From what I understand, women nowadays, are staying single because there are no real men out there. They are all 'momma's boys'. I was just showing that a quote from a show from the 60's could still be relevant today.

I did enjoy your insight, however.

[Pahonu]

This comment does not have to do with the Persuaders, but with The Saint. Was watching an episode from season 5, The Man Who Liked Lions. Basically, about a guy (Tiberio Magadino) who was hung up on ancient Rome. But something Tiberio (played by Peter Wyngarde) said could be said today.

"I'm a great admirer of the early Roman culture. It had much to recommend it.
Force, compulsion, discipline, and strength. At least it produced men. REAL men.
And like our sick, decadent society today? What does it produce?
Long-haired, self-absorbed, effeminates."

But, it's not like Rome wasn't also sick and decadent.

Now, back to The Persuaders.

The quote from the series about REAL men in Roman culture seems overly simplistic and based on later perspectives more than on the record of Roman society itself. Sexual attitudes and behaviors in ancient Roman were incredibly different from those of the last century or so. Prostitution was legal, public, and quite widespread. Paintings that would be described as pornographic today were often featured among the art collections in respectable upperclass households.

It was also considered natural and not at all unusual for men to be sexually attracted to teen-aged youths of both sexes. The terms "Homosexual" and "heterosexual" were not the opposite poles on the spectrum of Roman thinking about sexuality. In fact, there are no Latin words for these concepts.

There was no moral judgement made of the man who enjoyed sex acts with either women or men as long as they were of lower social status. While the perception of effeminacy was often denounced, sex with male prostitutes or slaves was not regarded as improper or even a sign of lack of masculinity.

Later Christian writers denounced all these concepts and behaviors as immoral, particularly that the Romans had more fluid gender boundaries than even the ancient Greeks. Our current Western society still seems to reflect this bias in analysis of Greek and a Roman culture. It’s a very interesting and incredibly complex topic.

As a history professor and social studies teacher, I find the clash between the United States founding as a democratic republic inspired by the societies of ancient Athens and Rome, with the Judeo-Christian world view held by many American citizens today, to be utterly fascinating.

I was basically referring to the feminization of the males today. Toxic masculinity is a term that is thrown about. From what I understand, women nowadays, are staying single because there are no real men out there. They are all 'momma's boys'. I was just showing that a quote from a show from the 60's could still be relevant today.

I did enjoy your insight, however.

I understand your point. It’s just the history professor in me that has to call out inaccurate historical references. Still, I’m not so sure that women staying single now is about no real men being out there. Women have far more opportunities today to make such relationship decisions because they’re not as economically dependent as in past generations. Some men seem to struggle today with the idea that a woman doesn’t need their help in any meaningful way. That’s a HUGE change.

Even my own mother, who was an elementary school teacher in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s, couldn’t have easily made her way alone. Banks wouldn’t loan to woman for cars or homes, and credit cards were also off limits. My wife is also an educator and we have a very equitable relationship in that way. Yet I have had colleagues and other friends question the balance in our relationship as if it is somehow wrong. I think it may feel threatening to their view of masculinity. To be honest, I often use the fact that I am 6-8 tall and a former NCAA athlete to question them about their own insecurities about their role as a male in their relationship. Perhaps that’s a bit harsh, but I think there’s real value in women’s opportunities today to make decisions without a male partner.

[Luther's nephew Dobie]

sometimes Magnum Mania seems to me like a large group of friends in a tavern like McSorleys riffing off each other's stories
which is a big part of the fun.

Would that be Marty McSorley's tavern??

Just got COVID, shakes, fever, congestion, blurry vision, joint pain, etc. Worst illness of my life, slept for 24 straight hours,but hey now I get to be part of the club like most everyone else.
Feel a tad better but still choking, hard to walk, not whining just saying in case I disappear for a while.
Shoot, there I go on a tangent again.
Back to The Persuaders.

Oh boy, hang in there brother. This too shall pass. Now you really are a part of the club. Are your taste buds and smells still intact? The dead giveaway for me that I had gotten Covid was when I lost complete smell not for a day or two (as had happened in years past during bad flu seasons) but for a week... and then two weeks... and then.... Anyway, when I finally got my taste and smell back it took a REALLY long time for food to start tasting good again. Eggs and coffee in particular (which are a breakfast staple for me) as well as certain fruits and veggies. I'm talking 6 months, maybe more. Take care of yourself and get well.

Hi Ivan,
Thank you for the kind words pal. Nobody told me it could take so long to get 'taste' back, dag nab it. Sorry to hear about not enjoying coffee, how much more can this suck.
"Marty McSorley's tavern"? Nah, I have reference to the oldest bar in NYC, McSorley's Old Ale House, home to Babe Ruth, Bogart, Hunter Thompson, the McCourt Brothers, JFK(whose track
shoes hang from the ceiling. All the folkies like the Clancy Brothers and Dylan that hung out at the White Horse also went to McSorleys.
It hasn't changed since the 1850's, pot bellied stove, wooden floors covered in sawdust, bar cats. Locals during the day, herds of tourists/college kids at night.
President Kennedy would road trip down from Harvard to pick up girls there when he was a student.
In the "N.Y. P. D." series starring Jack Warden, the 1967 episode "Fast Gun" was filmed there(on You Tube). Foreign tourists make a point of dropping in.
It also appears in many literary works. And is the subject of a half hour documentary that usually runs on local PBS stations on St. Paddy's Day.

Pahonu wrote:
Hey Dobie,Hope you feel better soon. No worries about the tangents. If someone calls it out, which doesn’t happen that often, I usually rein it in, but I think you are correct about
friends sharing stories. I enjoy reading all the interesting experiences members have had, whether related to MPI or not. 

Thanks Pahonu. You know with over a million dead, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that some of the past Magnum Mania members whose absence we have wondered about
may have been victims of this scourge. 20 years from now kids will be asking you about this time.
Whoa, enough of this happy talk. Let's just hope everyone gets through this safely.

[Pahonu]

sometimes Magnum Mania seems to me like a large group of friends in a tavern like McSorleys riffing off each other's stories
which is a big part of the fun.

Would that be Marty McSorley's tavern??

Just got COVID, shakes, fever, congestion, blurry vision, joint pain, etc. Worst illness of my life, slept for 24 straight hours,but hey now I get to be part of the club like most everyone else.
Feel a tad better but still choking, hard to walk, not whining just saying in case I disappear for a while.
Shoot, there I go on a tangent again.
Back to The Persuaders.

Oh boy, hang in there brother. This too shall pass. Now you really are a part of the club. Are your taste buds and smells still intact? The dead giveaway for me that I had gotten Covid was when I lost complete smell not for a day or two (as had happened in years past during bad flu seasons) but for a week... and then two weeks... and then.... Anyway, when I finally got my taste and smell back it took a REALLY long time for food to start tasting good again. Eggs and coffee in particular (which are a breakfast staple for me) as well as certain fruits and veggies. I'm talking 6 months, maybe more. Take care of yourself and get well.

Hi Ivan,
Thank you for the kind words pal. Nobody told me it could take so long to get 'taste' back, dag nab it. Sorry to hear about not enjoying coffee, how much more can this suck.
"Marty McSorley's tavern"? Nah, I have reference to the oldest bar in NYC, McSorley's Old Ale House, home to Babe Ruth, Bogart, Hunter Thompson, the McCourt Brothers, JFK(whose track
shoes hang from the ceiling. All the folkies like the Clancy Brothers and Dylan that hung out at the White Horse also went to McSorleys.
It hasn't changed since the 1850's, pot bellied stove, wooden floors covered in sawdust, bar cats. Locals during the day, herds of tourists/college kids at night.
President Kennedy would road trip down from Harvard to pick up girls there when he was a student.
In the "N.Y. P. D." series starring Jack Warden, the 1967 episode "Fast Gun" was filmed there(on You Tube). Foreign tourists make a point of dropping in.
It also appears in many literary works. And is the subject of a half hour documentary that usually runs on local PBS stations on St. Paddy's Day.

Pahonu wrote:
Hey Dobie,Hope you feel better soon. No worries about the tangents. If someone calls it out, which doesn’t happen that often, I usually rein it in, but I think you are correct about
friends sharing stories. I enjoy reading all the interesting experiences members have had, whether related to MPI or not. 

Thanks Pahonu. You know with over a million dead, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that some of the past Magnum Mania members whose absence we have wondered about
may have been victims of this scourge. 20 years from now kids will be asking you about this time.
Whoa, enough of this happy talk. Let's just hope everyone gets through this safely.

That thought had crossed my mind too.
Hope you’re feeling better.

[Chris109]

This comment does not have to do with the Persuaders, but with The Saint. Was watching an episode from season 5, The Man Who Liked Lions. Basically, about a guy (Tiberio Magadino) who was hung up on ancient Rome. But something Tiberio (played by Peter Wyngarde) said could be said today.

"I'm a great admirer of the early Roman culture. It had much to recommend it.
Force, compulsion, discipline, and strength. At least it produced men. REAL men.
And like our sick, decadent society today? What does it produce?
Long-haired, self-absorbed, effeminates."

But, it's not like Rome wasn't also sick and decadent.

Now, back to The Persuaders.

The quote from the series about REAL men in Roman culture seems overly simplistic and based on later perspectives more than on the record of Roman society itself. Sexual attitudes and behaviors in ancient Roman were incredibly different from those of the last century or so. Prostitution was legal, public, and quite widespread. Paintings that would be described as pornographic today were often featured among the art collections in respectable upperclass households.

It was also considered natural and not at all unusual for men to be sexually attracted to teen-aged youths of both sexes. The terms "Homosexual" and "heterosexual" were not the opposite poles on the spectrum of Roman thinking about sexuality. In fact, there are no Latin words for these concepts.

There was no moral judgement made of the man who enjoyed sex acts with either women or men as long as they were of lower social status. While the perception of effeminacy was often denounced, sex with male prostitutes or slaves was not regarded as improper or even a sign of lack of masculinity.

Later Christian writers denounced all these concepts and behaviors as immoral, particularly that the Romans had more fluid gender boundaries than even the ancient Greeks. Our current Western society still seems to reflect this bias in analysis of Greek and a Roman culture. It’s a very interesting and incredibly complex topic.

As a history professor and social studies teacher, I find the clash between the United States founding as a democratic republic inspired by the societies of ancient Athens and Rome, with the Judeo-Christian world view held by many American citizens today, to be utterly fascinating.

I was basically referring to the feminization of the males today. Toxic masculinity is a term that is thrown about. From what I understand, women nowadays, are staying single because there are no real men out there. They are all 'momma's boys'. I was just showing that a quote from a show from the 60's could still be relevant today.

I did enjoy your insight, however.

I understand your point. It’s just the history professor in me that has to call out inaccurate historical references. Still, I’m not so sure that women staying single now is about no real men being out there. Women have far more opportunities today to make such relationship decisions because they’re not as economically dependent as in past generations. Some men seem to struggle today with the idea that a woman doesn’t need their help in any meaningful way. That’s a HUGE change.

Even my own mother, who was an elementary school teacher in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s, couldn’t have easily made her way alone. Banks wouldn’t loan to woman for cars or homes, and credit cards were also off limits. My wife is also an educator and we have a very equitable relationship in that way. Yet I have had colleagues and other friends question the balance in our relationship as if it is somehow wrong. I think it may feel threatening to their view of masculinity. To be honest, I often use the fact that I am 6-8 tall and a former NCAA athlete to question them about their own insecurities about their role as a male in their relationship. Perhaps that’s a bit harsh, but I think there’s real value in women’s opportunities today to make decisions without a male partner.

And when they decide to have a kid without the man, it doesn't take long for them to go after the guy for child support. Heck, there are even some who have gone after the 'donors' from the clinic.

I remember this was on a magazine cover from the 80's or 90's.



I saw this the other day and I think it kind of sums up what, I believe, is going on today. Tim Pool video.

https://youtu.be/Z2rnrOJicRA?t=2741


When I had a bout with maybe The Vid a few months back, I lost taste also. I didn't even realize it at the time. I thought I had just bought some bad groceries. But, when I had trouble swallowing, losing taste was no big deal.