Magnum's 1911

[perfectlykevin]

http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/the ... -colt.aspx

Looks lik eit's on display at the museum, in Fairfax, VA. Might have to swing by there in a week or two when I'm near there. Hopefully they'll allow pictures.

[Aloha70]

Link did not work (for me) but i found the pictures:


Magnum p.i. colt 1980/88.


Magnum p.i. Walter PPK 1980/88.

http://www.nramuseum.com/search.aspx?s=magnum

[perfectlykevin]

Hi guys! Made it to the museum the other day and snapped these pics. Oddly thee was also a dog tag with Thomas Magnum on it of course. It was behind the glass (obviously) so I couldn't quite get all the info on the tags. Anyway, the pics...







and a few other donations by Mr. Selleck...



All in all a great day, my son was amazed at the wide diversity of firearms as much as I was by the history of the place.

[MaximRecoil]

Awesome pictures. I've been wanting to see that side of the Colt Government Model (the NRA Museum site only shows the ejection port side). That's one of the later CGMs that Selleck used on the show, the one they tried to make look more like a military M1911A1 by adding USGI brown plastic grips and a pre-1950 style partial-shelf thumb safety (all M1911A1s had partial-shelf thumb safeties, and nearly all of them had brown plastic grips).

That gun originally came with checkered walnut grips with Colt medallions, and like all standard CGMs made since 1950, a full-shelf thumb safety.

I wonder what happened to the other "forty-fives" used by Selleck on the show? There were at least 2 other Series 70 CGMs that were also 9mm, plus one that was .45 ACP (all of them were "playing the role of" a .45), plus one really old and worn pre-1950 CGM .45 ACP that looked nothing like the others and only made a single brief appearance, plus a couple of Star-manufactured 9mm pistols that were similar to, but not a clone of, a 1911 (Star Model B and Model BM) in the "China Doll" episode.

[only looking]

Didn't at least on of the 1911's he used thru the series have a silver trigger, instead of the blued on seen in that pic?

[MaximRecoil]

Yes, the one in the pilot had a silver trigger (nickel-plated, came stock on some blued Series 70 Government Models). The silver trigger showed up in various other episodes too, interchangeably with the blued trigger guns. I don't have a list of all the episodes, but I know there was a silver-trigger CGM in s07e05, because I saved a screen shot of it.

[MaximRecoil]

Here is a rundown of all of the different props I've noticed that have played the role of Magnum's "forty-five":

Pilot episode, Colt's MKIV/Series 70 Government Model ("S70 CGM" for short) 9mm Luger, nickel-plated trigger:



China Doll, Star Model B 9mm (note the external extractor):



China Doll, Star Model BM (compact version of the Model B):



Jororo Farewell, S70 CGM, 9mm, stock full-shelf thumb-safety, blued trigger:



Old Acquaintance, S70 CGM, 9mm, pre-1950 half-shelf thumb-safety,
probably the same pistol that the NRA museum currently has on display.
Note the walnut grips, as opposed to the USGI M1911A1 plastic grips on
the NRA museum pistol (I don't believe that the plastic grips were ever
used on the show):



Italian Ice, WWII-era CGM, .45 ACP. Note the well-worn finish / patina, as
well as the wide-spur hammer which identifies it as being WWII-era or
earlier. This looks nothing like Magnum's usual like-new S70 CGM prop. It
was only used once in this brief insert scene:



... By Its Cover, S70 CGM. This one is unusual because it is a .45 ACP
instead of the usual 9mm prop, and it is a new (at the time) Series 70
and Magnum is actually holding it, unlike the ~40 year old (at the time)
well-worn relic in Italian Ice that Magnum is never shown actually holding.
You can tell it is a .45 due to the straight barrel (as opposed to 9mm
CGMs which have a "belled" barrel; the first two following pictures
illustrate that difference):

[only looking]

so if youre a fan....take your choice...lol Actually the more military type GI 1911 is what he really should carry....beens we see him carrying it during the war and we assume it's the same one. BUT....it's tv magic I guess. lol GREAT job btw of obtaining all the pics and pointing out the differences...1911 has always been my favorite pistol.

[MaximRecoil]

so if youre a fan....take your choice...lol

I made my S80 CGM .45 ACP look like the pilot episode one, by adding early M1911A1-style fully-checkered walnut grips (the later M1911A1s had brown plastic versions of those grips), and by finding a Colt-manufactured nickel-plated trigger from an S70 to replace the black plastic trigger that it came with. I also replaced the black plastic mainspring housing with a new old stock Colt-manufactured Series 70 blued steel mainspring housing.

See, I bought my S80 CGM new when I was 16 in 1991, and by that time Colt had started trying to save costs by using plastic triggers and mainspring housings (they actually work fine, and make the gun a little lighter, but I just don't like the look and feel of plastic on a 1911), along with cheap rubber grips. So I had always planned to replace those two plastic parts with earlier Colt-manufactured steel parts, and I'd always intended to get some traditional walnut grips as well. I actually bought two Colt-manufactured stock steel S70 CGM triggers, one nickel-plated and one blued, so I can have either one of them in the gun in a matter of minutes. The blued steel trigger might even be from an S80, because they came on S80s until the late 1980s when they started using plastic. Here's a picture of my pistol:

Actually the more military type GI 1911 is what he really should carry....beens we see him carrying it during the war and we assume it's the same one. BUT....it's tv magic I guess.

I assume that's what they were going for when they replaced the stock full-shelf thumb safety with a pre-1950 half-shelf thumb safety (all M1911A1s were pre-1950, the last of them being made in 1945, so they all had half-shelf thumb safeties).

M1911A1s went into production in the mid-1920s and they were blued with walnut grips. In that respect, they were like the Magnum PI "forty-five" props, though the bluing wasn't in the same style as Colt's commercial style from 1950 and later, which was "polished flats and matte radiuses" (earlier bluing styles included fully polished or polished radiuses and brushed flats). Here is one of the first M1911A1s, manufactured in 1924, with walnut grips and a blued finish (polished radiuses and brushed flats, like the earlier M1911s had):



M1911A1s were blued with walnut grips until about 1941, which sounds like a long time (~17 years), but in reality, relatively few M1911A1s were ordered by Uncle Sam during that time, because there was little demand for them). When WWII brought the demand and production from the various contractors ramped up (most notably Colt and Remington Rand), they started using a matte parkerized finish and brown plastic grips, and these are by far the most commonly encountered M1911A1s, because nearly 2 million of them were made.

The most obvious thing that distinguishes Magnum's typical prop CGMs from even early M1911A1s is the lowered ejection port (which on S70 CGMs was done at the factory to 9mms, but not .45s) and the polished "in the white" (silver colored) chamber hood (always a commercial indicator; all M1911 and M1911A1 barrels were blued, including their chamber hoods, and including on the later A1s that were otherwise parkerized). None of the Magnum PI "forty-five" props had a lanyard loop either, like all M1911 and M1911A1s did.

One way to look at it is: maybe Magnum bought his own commercial CGM in Vietnam. Relatively few people were issued a pistol, and maybe he wasn't issued one. Or, if he was issued one, maybe it was beat up, inaccurate, unreliable, or whatever, and he wanted a better one. Soldiers buying their own sidearms wasn't unheard of in Vietnam. The S&W Model 60 Chief's Special snub-nose .38 Special revolver was a popular choice for soldiers that weren't issued sidearms; it's stainless steel construction held up well in the jungle. I also personally know of one Vietnam veteran that bought a commercial Colt CGM in .38 Super, which he eventually mailed home one piece at a time and still has.

[Walks]

So, if I want one, and if I don't want to do any modifications to it (outside of maybe changing the grips) what should I get.
A Colt, for sure, right? But then what?

[MaximRecoil]

So, if I want one, and if I don't want to do any modifications to it (outside of maybe changing the grips) what should I get.
A Colt, for sure, right? But then what?

It depends on whether you want one like the most common prop or if you want one like what the gun was supposed to be.

If you want one like the most common prop, you'll need to find a Colt MKIV/Series 70 Government Model chambered for 9mm Luger. The original Series 70 was manufactured from about 1971 to 1983. The only thing you'd need to change would be the grips, and the most accurate grips would be some original USGI M1911A1 walnut grips (probably hard to find), or some older commercial Colt Government Model fully checkered walnut grips, used on CGMs from the mid-1920s until the 1950s when they started coming with hard rubber grips. The older M1911 style "double diamond" grips are not correct.

Unfortunately, that M1911 (pre-A1) style of grip has seen a revival (maybe because they are fancier looking), and it is very difficult these days to find newly manufactured walnut grips in the A1 style; they are nearly all in the pre-A1 "double diamond" style. For my gun (pictured in my previous post), I finally found some A1-style fully-checkered walnut grips from Herrett Stocks. They have been around a long time and are very high quality. The ones they sent me were beautifully made, and fit perfectly, and they were only twenty someodd dollars (5 or 6 years ago). HB-1 is the model number (link), and be sure to ask for traditional black walnut (the ones pictured are an exotic wood called Cocobolo, which is not correct in this context, and is more expensive).

On the other hand, in the context of the show, the 9mm prop guns are "playing the role of" a "forty-five" (.45 ACP), which is the cartridge that the 1911/CGM was originally designed for, and the cartridge that all USGI M1911s and M1911A1s were chambered for. They didn't use .45 ACP CGMs for props because at the time, they couldn't get them to cycle blanks reliably.

With that in mind, beyond the chambering, what the gun is actually supposed to be in the context of the Magnum, P.I. universe is open to interpretation, i.e.; is it supposed to be a USGI M1911A1 or is it supposed to be a commercial Colt Government Model? If you believe it is supposed to be a CGM, then, ironically, an early (pre-1988 or so) Series 80 .45 looks more like a Series 70 9mm than a Series 70 .45 does. The reason is that Series 70 .45s had standard M1911A1-style ejection ports, while Series 70 9mms (like the MPI props) had lowered ejection ports. However, all Series 80 CGMs have lowered ejection ports, regardless of the cartridge they are chambered for.

If you believe that the gun is supposed to be a USGI M1911A1, then be prepared to open your wallet wide, especially if you want an early blued one with walnut grips in good condition to most closely resemble the MPI props. All USGI M1911A1s sell for big money these days, especially ones in good condition, and especially rare ones like the early blued ones with walnut grips. I would estimate $5,000 or more for such a gun.

So:

• To duplicate the typical MPI prop: S70 CGM 9mm; replace grips.

• To most closely duplicate the appearance of the typical MPI prop, but in "forty-five": Early S80 CGM .45 ACP; replace grips (an early S80 will already have a steel mainspring housing and trigger from the factory, unlike my late 1980s S80 that came with a plastic mainspring housing and trigger).

Alternatively, an original Series 70 CGM or one of the currently manufactured Series 70 reissues is an awesome gun, if you don't mind the slight visual difference of its standard ejection port vs. the lowered ejection port of the MPI props.

• To most closely duplicate the appearance of the typical MPI prop, but in the form of a USGI M1911A1, look for a Colt-manufactured M1911A1 in good condition, manufactured between 1924 and about 1941 ($$$).

[only looking]

Hey Maxim...my 1911 is a series 70 blued with nickel trigger and hammer with white/stainless barrel then I stuck on the checkered grips...looks like your 80's series. In the shootout with all the men in Chinatown with Michelle, I believe he had this type gun...maybe even in the warehouse when he got shot....so the major story points I liked featured that particualr set up...so that's why I went with that one. In the pilot episode where he take his gun out of the holster and rakes the slide (also in the opening credits) you can clearly see the 9mm magazine that has the vitical line that is kinda crimped to allow for the smaller 9mm shell. Still amazed so many 1911's were used. Then again I LOVE Justifed and the main character is suppose to use a Glock 45 which would be a Glock 21...but he clearly uses a Glock 17 which is a 9mm...lol Dont get me started on that one...lol

[MaximRecoil]

Hey Maxim...my 1911 is a series 70 blued with nickel trigger and hammer with white/stainless barrel then I stuck on the checkered grips...looks like your 80's series.

The hammers on blued Colt Government Models are blued with "in the white" flats (the sides), which means just bare steel, which of course is silver in color. The same applies to the barrels. They are blued, but the chamber hood is left "in the white" (the chamber hood is the part of the barrel that can be seen through the ejection port). The silver-colored triggers that came stock on some blued Series 70 CGMs were indeed nickel-plated, and that's what I currently have on my S80.

In the shootout with all the men in Chinatown with Michelle, I believe he had this type gun...maybe even in the warehouse when he got shot....so the major story points I liked featured that particualr set up...so that's why I went with that one.

The gun in the "Memories Are Forever" Little Saigon shootout was an S70 CGM 9mm, given that it was fired (all of the "forty-five" props that were fired onscreen were 9mm CGMs, and probably 99% of the ones that weren't fired onscreen we also 9mm CGMs), plus you can clearly see its lowered ejection port:



However, I don't think there are any scenes where you can see the color of its trigger.

Nearly every time you see the "forty-five" prop, it is an S70 CGM 9mm, though not necessarily the same prop each time. As I mentioned in a previous post, I think there were at least 3 different S70 CGM 9mms used throughout the show, though it is possible, albeit unlikely in my opinion, that it was the same prop in 3 different stages of modifications.

In the pilot episode where he take his gun out of the holster and rakes the slide (also in the opening credits) you can clearly see the 9mm magazine that has the vitical line that is kinda crimped to allow for the smaller 9mm shell.

Yeah, as far as I know, every time the magazine was visible it was a 9mm magazine. The alignment grooves are a dead giveaway.

If I'd been in charge of the guns on the show, I would have had an early Colt-manufactured USGI M1911A1 as the "hero" prop to be used consistently as Magnum's gun throughout the series. For scenes which required the gun to be fired, I would have had a Colt S70 CGM 9mm modified to look as much like the hero prop as possible, which would mean replacing the stock full-shelf thumb safety with an M1911 or M1911A1 half-shelf thumb safety; replacing the mainspring housing with an M1911A1 mainspring housing (which has a lanyard loop by default); replacing the original Colt medallion grips with plain M1911A1 checkered walnut grips, and refinishing the whole gun in the same style as an early blued M1911A1 (brushed flats and polished radiuses, completely blued barrel). As a bonus, the blued chamber hood would make its lowered ejection port less noticeable. I also would have never shown a 9mm magazine onscreen.

These days, the problem with getting .45 autos to reliably cycle blanks has long since been solved, so there is no need for 9mms playing the role of .45s anymore, though it is still sometimes done, mainly because 9mm blanks are cheaper, and there are still a lot of the old Star Model B and 9mm CGM props kicking around Hollywood.

[ConchRepublican]

Silly question .... But what's the kick difference between a 1911 9mm and .45? My understanding was that a .45 packed a wallop but it seems in this instance a 9mm is similar.

[MaximRecoil]

Silly question .... But what's the kick difference between a 1911 9mm and .45? My understanding was that a .45 packed a wallop but it seems in this instance a 9mm is similar.

The difference is in the cartridge that it is chambered for. The 1911 itself is mostly the same whether it is chambered for 9mm or .45; the parts that are different are internal (e.g. barrel, extractor, ejector, magazine, firing pin).

You can see the difference in size between a 9mm Luger cartridge and a .45 ACP cartridge in the following picture:



Since the .45 ACP is physically bigger, it has less magazine capacity in a 1911 than a 9mm. Traditionally, the 1911 magazine holds 7 rounds, but starting in the 1990s, 8-round versions became common, and are now the standard size if you buy e.g. a new Colt (and various clones from other manufacturers). The 1911 .45 ACP magazine body always had room for 8 cartridges, but for whatever reason, 7 was decided upon back in the year 1911. All they had to do was shorten the internal follower to allow for an 8-round capacity.

The standard capacity of a 9mm 1911 magazine is 9 rounds, though as with the .45 ACP now having flush-fitting 8-round magazines available, the 9mm 1911 magazines now are available in 10-round capacity (flush fitting).

The 1911 was of course designed specifically for the .45 ACP, and the .45 ACP was designed specifically for the 1911, and the .45 ACP is by far the most popular chambering for the 1911 regardless of the manufacturer.

A standard military .45 ACP cartridge has a .452" diameter 230 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of about 830 feet per second, for 352 ft·lbf of muzzle energy.

A standard military (NATO) 9mm Luger cartridge has a .355" diameter 124 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of about 1200, for 382 ft·lbf of muzzle energy.

Edited to add: I just noticed you were asking about the recoil difference; when I first read your message I didn't notice the word kick and I thought you were asking about the difference in general. The .45 ACP recoil in a 1911 is significantly heavier than the 9mm recoil in a 1911, but it still isn't very heavy. All of the "recoil" you see on TV is simulated by the actors, as blanks have practically zero recoil, not even enough to cycle the action; they have to make internal modifications to allow the action to cycle with blanks.

There is a formula that can tell you how much recoil any given gun will have with any given cartridge; I'll see if I can find it.

Okay, the standard military .45 ACP load in a 1911 has about 6.1 ft·lbf of recoil energy, while the standard NATO 9mm Luger load in a 1911 has about 3.7 ft·lbf of recoil energy. By comparison, "Dirty Harry's" gun (S&W Model 29, 6.5" barrel, .44 Magnum) with Elmer Keith's famous 250 grain bullet @ 1450 FPS load has about 21.2 ft·lbf of recoil energy.