IvanTheTerrible wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:03 pm
Let the punishment fit the crime. It's even a Magnum episode. That's what I believe in. Otherwise there's nothing to deter a perpetrator from committing a crime. In all the civilized nations you mention there was a time when they all had capital punishment (and they were considered civilized at that time, by the way) and then some idiot came along and decided it's inhumane. Meanwhile is it humane what the perps perpetrate? But of course we must be better, right? We must take the moral high ground. Tell that to someone who lost a loved one. I'm sure that will make them feel better. And if we're never truly sure who's really guilty or innocent because we have an imperfect system then why bother at all? Let's let people out of jails because some percentage MIGHT be innocent. Let's not execute a monster. Let's pay taxes out of our pocket to keep him well-fed, well-treated, well-entertained until he's nice and plump and ready to die at a ripe old age. I'm sure he gets better healthcare than most of us do, by the way. That's someone's idea of justice I'm sure. Not mine.
Countries tend to evolve and revisit policies based on how the world changes and how new ideas come to prevail. The fact that innocent people have been wrongfully executed is a pretty compelling reason against it! Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest that capital punishment is a deterrent to violent crime. Of course, if I were personally affected by the murder of a loved one, my opinion would probably be different - it's understandable. But that's really not how government should formulate policy!
Trust me - extreme actions do work as a deterrent. I guarantee that if the United States enacted a policy to chop off limbs for shoplifting you would see a decrease in shoplifting. Or if you got beaten by a cane for spitting on the sidewalk (like they did in Singapore) you wouldn't have folks spitting. No excuses. If you do this, that will follow. GUARANTEED it would deter!
Ivan, when you use statements like “trust me” or “GUARANTEED” they carry no weight beyond your personal feelings about the topic. “Trust me” is an argument without evidence and you can not realistically provide any guarantees about your feelings on the topic. You are certainly entitled to your feelings, but as I and others have argued, a single individuals feelings play no role in a democratic society’s justice system, or in its public policy in general. That’s by design, as Amian explained in such detail. It’s why due process developed and is still supported in all democratic societies. Along those same lines, you certainly don’t have to agree with the direction public policy has taken over the centuries, but it has changed, and in a more democratic direction generally. More importantly, it has changed because the majority in those democratic societies made it so.
The beliefs of any single individual dictating justice in a society is exactly that...a dictatorship and not democratic. Believing that legal systems in past societies were more just, the vast majority of which were not democratic until the last two centuries, is ignoring a long documented history of torture, abuse, and wrongful killings. Finally, as Styles argued, there is no evidence globally or in the US that capital punishment acts as a deterrent, your feelings about it put aside. US Department of Justice statistics over the past several decades have continually shown that the roughly half of US states still allowing for capital punishment have higher rates of violent crime than states that do not. The numbers are in the range of 6 vs 4/100,000 population. Again, you may feel about it how you want, but the deterrent argument is simply not the reality.
Pahonu, you crack me up! Really! Some things don't require evidence. Common sense dictates that if I tell you you're gonna lose an arm if you reach for that thing then you probably won't reach for it. Unless you're an octopus and perfectly content with your 7 remaining limbs.
The numbers that you cite could be interpreted in so many different ways. Do you know how many other contributing factors there may be as to why some states have higher and some lower violent crimes? So many different variables. Maybe the other state is all farm country so they don't have many crimes, hence no death penalty. Maybe that's why a state has death penalty. BECAUSE of the high crime rate. Maybe if you removed capital punishment from this very violent state then the violence would escalate even more. Do studies take that into account?
Anyway, we've clearly exhausted this topic. And derailed this thread. Let's get back to that wonderful role model - Noah Beery, Jr.
IvanTheTerrible wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:03 pm
Let the punishment fit the crime. It's even a Magnum episode. That's what I believe in. Otherwise there's nothing to deter a perpetrator from committing a crime. In all the civilized nations you mention there was a time when they all had capital punishment (and they were considered civilized at that time, by the way) and then some idiot came along and decided it's inhumane. Meanwhile is it humane what the perps perpetrate? But of course we must be better, right? We must take the moral high ground. Tell that to someone who lost a loved one. I'm sure that will make them feel better. And if we're never truly sure who's really guilty or innocent because we have an imperfect system then why bother at all? Let's let people out of jails because some percentage MIGHT be innocent. Let's not execute a monster. Let's pay taxes out of our pocket to keep him well-fed, well-treated, well-entertained until he's nice and plump and ready to die at a ripe old age. I'm sure he gets better healthcare than most of us do, by the way. That's someone's idea of justice I'm sure. Not mine.
Countries tend to evolve and revisit policies based on how the world changes and how new ideas come to prevail. The fact that innocent people have been wrongfully executed is a pretty compelling reason against it! Moreover, there is no evidence to suggest that capital punishment is a deterrent to violent crime. Of course, if I were personally affected by the murder of a loved one, my opinion would probably be different - it's understandable. But that's really not how government should formulate policy!
Trust me - extreme actions do work as a deterrent. I guarantee that if the United States enacted a policy to chop off limbs for shoplifting you would see a decrease in shoplifting. Or if you got beaten by a cane for spitting on the sidewalk (like they did in Singapore) you wouldn't have folks spitting. No excuses. If you do this, that will follow. GUARANTEED it would deter!
Ivan, when you use statements like “trust me” or “GUARANTEED” they carry no weight beyond your personal feelings about the topic. “Trust me” is an argument without evidence and you can not realistically provide any guarantees about your feelings on the topic. You are certainly entitled to your feelings, but as I and others have argued, a single individuals feelings play no role in a democratic society’s justice system, or in its public policy in general. That’s by design, as Amian explained in such detail. It’s why due process developed and is still supported in all democratic societies. Along those same lines, you certainly don’t have to agree with the direction public policy has taken over the centuries, but it has changed, and in a more democratic direction generally. More importantly, it has changed because the majority in those democratic societies made it so.
The beliefs of any single individual dictating justice in a society is exactly that...a dictatorship and not democratic. Believing that legal systems in past societies were more just, the vast majority of which were not democratic until the last two centuries, is ignoring a long documented history of torture, abuse, and wrongful killings. Finally, as Styles argued, there is no evidence globally or in the US that capital punishment acts as a deterrent, your feelings about it put aside. US Department of Justice statistics over the past several decades have continually shown that the roughly half of US states still allowing for capital punishment have higher rates of violent crime than states that do not. The numbers are in the range of 6 vs 4/100,000 population. Again, you may feel about it how you want, but the deterrent argument is simply not the reality.
Pahonu, you crack me up! Really! Some things don't require evidence. Common sense dictates that if I tell you you're gonna lose an arm if you reach for that thing then you probably won't reach for it. Unless you're an octopus and perfectly content with your 7 remaining limbs.
The numbers that you cite could be interpreted in so many different ways. Do you know how many other contributing factors there may be as to why some states have higher and some lower violent crimes? So many different variables. Maybe the other state is all farm country so they don't have many crimes, hence no death penalty. Maybe that's why a state has death penalty. BECAUSE of the high crime rate. Maybe if you removed capital punishment from this very violent state then the violence would escalate even more. Do studies take that into account?
Anyway, we've clearly exhausted this topic. And derailed this thread. Let's get back to that wonderful role model - Noah Beery, Jr.
The fundamental issue we’re seeing here is that you fail to provide any evidence yourself, instead saying trust me or it’s just common sense. That’s almost comical, since we are cracking each other up, but it’s more a failure of logic. Those comments are good enough for you perhaps, but others adding comment don’t seem to agree, not do I. Myself and others here have presented evidence of their position which you deny but do not counter with anything meaningful beyond your feelings about it. Now, you are apparently saying evidence isn’t even necessary. Yes, some things don’t require evidence such as an opinion on an MPI episode, but the topic here is the justice system and capital punishment so I would say there absolutely should be evidence when people being executed are part of the conversation. I do find it a bit surprising, even ironic, that you seem to enjoy so many private detective and police shows but so quickly dismiss evidence.
I’m certainly willing to leave it at that if you are. I would also enjoy continuing the debate if you would like.
Last edited by Pahonu on Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
T.Q. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:52 amPosting early to hopefully get back to the Watch Party.
Agreed. Perhaps continue in the KKC. It's an interesting topic and one that has been debated endlessly in modern history, so I don't think we're going to get to any sort of agreement...especially since we're all getting into those years in life where we get set in our ways and not a heck of a lot is going to change our opinions.
"How fiendishly deceptive of you Magnum. I could have sworn I was hearing the emasculation of a large rodent."
T.Q. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:52 amPosting early to hopefully get back to the Watch Party.
Agreed. Perhaps continue in the KKC. It's an interesting topic and one that has been debated endlessly in modern history, so I don't think we're going to get to any sort of agreement...especially since we're all getting into those years in life where we get set in our ways and not a heck of a lot is going to change our opinions.
Yep.
Can't convince me a Dad shooting his daughter's rapist is really 'wrong' even though it's illegal.
Or a jury putting a child murderer to death is wrong either. Especially in 2021 where the science is pretty ironclad (and throw in technology that captures a lot of crime). This ain't 1960.
Anyways, you're right.
Pages and pages of posts won't change minds.
Back to the Watch Party
Hopefully, for real this time.
Knocking my rubber chicken or my sloppy habits is within the rules, but you're attacking my character. I would like to think you don't mean that.
T.Q. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:52 amPosting early to hopefully get back to the Watch Party.
Agreed. Perhaps continue in the KKC. It's an interesting topic and one that has been debated endlessly in modern history, so I don't think we're going to get to any sort of agreement...especially since we're all getting into those years in life where we get set in our ways and not a heck of a lot is going to change our opinions.
Yep.
Can't convince me a Dad shooting his daughter's rapist is really 'wrong' even though it's illegal.
Or a jury putting a child murderer to death is wrong either. Especially in 2021 where the science is pretty ironclad (and throw in technology that captures a lot of crime). This ain't 1960.
Anyways, you're right.
Pages and pages of posts won't change minds.
Back to the Watch Party
Hopefully, for real this time.
A move to the KKC thread is the right move. Sorry it got hijacked. I’ll leave that decision to Ivan as I’m not certain he wants to continue the debate or not.
Nope, it's time to put this puppy to rest. We're just pointlessly going back and forth and I GUARANTEE (no, wait - TRUST ME! lol) that we won't change each other's minds. So it's all a futile exercise. Unless we just enjoy discussing these topics for the heck of it. But there's too much politicking out there already as is, with all the social media venues where everybody has a voice and something to say. I try to stay clear as much as I can. And should try harder. I'd rather look for the kudu buck that I'm sure I heard in my backyard.
Gorilla Mask wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:48 pm
No, no, we must not give up on the primary and essential question for ... this topic ...
Namely, do you think that Anne Bloom is the best incarnation of the bimbo in bikini for season 1 ?
Lovely, but I can't agree with that one.
While I wouldn't call her a bimbo and she isn't even wearing a bikini, my vote unquestionably goes to Maku's daughter Kiki (Elizabeth Lindsay) in Lest we Forget.
"How fiendishly deceptive of you Magnum. I could have sworn I was hearing the emasculation of a large rodent."
As a good primer for Floyd, I've just looked over the notes compiled in the episode guide to remind me of some details. They're such a good source of information...
1 Magnum's famous voice over, "I know what you're thinking, and you're right.", is heard for the first time!
2 Noah Beery Jr. (Floyd Lewellyn) played Jim Rockford's father (truck driver Joseph "Rocky" Rockford) in The Rockford Files (1974-1980). He is the second regular cast member from Rockford to appear on Magnum P.I., following Gretchen Corbett who appeared just two episodes before in "The Curse of the King Kamehameha Club" (1.11). Joe Santos and Stuart Margolin will appear on Magnum in later seasons.
3 Floyd's car is a Honda N600 (1970-1972), the first Honda automobile to be officially imported to the United States.
4 List of notable filming locations:
Honolulu International Airport - "Magnum meets Cindy"
Pali Golf Course, in Kaneohe - "Floyd meets Yoshio"
Private residence on Hanapepe Place*, near Hanauma Bay Nature Preserve Park - "pyramid pool party"
Hawaii Kai (Lunalilo Home Rd.) - "Magnum driving Ferrari" (ID'd by rubber chicken)
Private residence in Kailua - "home of Clarence Burnside" (ID'd by rubber chicken)
5 We learn that Rick came to Hawaii immediately after the Vietnam War. He has "no desire to get back to the mainland".
6 The green car driven by the "old lady", the one that rear ends the Ferrari, is a 1951 Mercury 4-Door Sedan. (ID'd by rubber chicken)
7 Magnum's white tennis outfit features a rare John Newcombe Tennis Ranch polo shirt. (Noted by Dan)
8 Listen closely as Magnum and Cindy are walking through the airport near the beginning of the episode. An airport page can be heard - "Mr. Doug Ibold, please report to customs". Douglas Ibold is the lead film editor for Magnum P.I.. His last name will later be used for the minor recurring character of Doc Ibold, played by Glenn Cannon.
9 Elvis Presley crony Red West (Bull Radney) appeared with Tom Selleck in the 1979 TV movie The Concrete Cowboys and guest starred in several episodes of Baa Baa Black Sheep with Larry Manetti and Jeff MacKay. He will later appear in the Season Five episode "Let Me Hear the Music" (5.18).
10 Esmond Chung (Peter the tour guide) and Elissa Dulce Hoopai (Vicki the waitress) will later be featured on the show as two minor recurring characters - Sgt. Puna & Rosine (a King Kamehameha Club waitress).
* This same residence will be used as a resort in Season Two's "Ghost Writer" (2.12).
"How fiendishly deceptive of you Magnum. I could have sworn I was hearing the emasculation of a large rodent."
Styles Bitchley wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:35 pm
As a good primer for Floyd, I've just looked over the notes compiled in the episode guide to remind me of some details. They're such a good source of information...
Changed my mind.
I'd much rather talk about the death penalty.
Just kidding.
Good post. Interesting stuff. Thanks.
Knocking my rubber chicken or my sloppy habits is within the rules, but you're attacking my character. I would like to think you don't mean that.
Styles Bitchley wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:35 pm
As a good primer for Floyd, I've just looked over the notes compiled in the episode guide to remind me of some details. They're such a good source of information...
T.Q. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:24 pm
Who's hyped to watch possibly the best episode of any show that has ever run on network TV tonight All Roads Lead To Floyd?
Really! Some things don't require evidence. Common sense dictates that if I tell you you're gonna lose an arm if you reach for that thing then you probably won't reach for it. Unless you're an octopus and perfectly content with your 7 remaining limbs. 
I’ll leave that decision to Ivan as I’m not certain he wants to continue the debate or not.
