Reason why TM goes by Thomas not Tom

[Mark de Croix]

I am quite attracted to Pahonu's idea of pronunciation constraints. For me this is the right answer.
Of course, in the classical way in France, the full first name (except if it is definitely too long) is much more used by respect especially at the beginning of a relationship. Afterwards, with a little more intimacy, the diminutive can happen but it is rather rare except for teenagers and young adults.

But it varies a lot with the first name.

For example, I have a colleague with whom we are very close, called Valerie. In France, she would never be called 'Val' and 'Valoche' is rather pejorative.

My name is Renaud. In France, nobody would have the idea to call me Ron r Ronny.

It's actually very strange because other names are more easily shortened. Clémentine becomes Clem, Dominique, Domi, Stephane, Steph'...

Despite your great writing skill is it possible you are not native-born to an English country? Yesterday I something triggered in a post of yours that suggested that. It's all to say that you are quite gifted linguisticlly. Anyway as my previous posting about the sound/pronunciation points out, it can matter. In your French example, however, could it not be the case that Americans have the custom of soon shifting to nicknames informally than in the case of French people? Europeans tend to be more formal than are US Americans. Personal name usage is a very good example.

[Mark de Croix]

I agree, the nature of the relationship and it’s intimacy must play some role. That said, TV entertainment media almost always refers to the actor as Tom Selleck, while references to his character are usually as Thomas Magnum. There’s no difference in the relationship in that case. It seems my pronunciation explanation might be in play. As I think about it, many returning characters in the series call him simply Magnum. I’m thinking of Mac, Buck Green, and Maggie Poole frequently. Higgins always did. Agatha called him Mr. Magnum. Mr. White Death called him the Mag.

I was just thinking that many of my colleagues call me only by my last name. It is how I answer the phone and sign emails, for what that’s worth. Far more men than women use my last name though. I call many of them by their last name too, but not usually the women. I have no rational for why this is so. I’m thinking about this way too much, but now I’m really curious.

Pahonu, please harken back to your own childhood. Didn't your friends call you by a nickname (e.g., Tom/Tommy). Not surprising that people at the workplace call you by your surname. The same incidentally and occurs informally among "tough" males (i.e. gang). Yet if nickname is normally used but surname substituted that conveys social distance (= disturbance in our intimacy).

[Gorilla Mask]

I am quite attracted to Pahonu's idea of pronunciation constraints. For me this is the right answer.
Of course, in the classical way in France, the full first name (except if it is definitely too long) is much more used by respect especially at the beginning of a relationship. Afterwards, with a little more intimacy, the diminutive can happen but it is rather rare except for teenagers and young adults.

But it varies a lot with the first name.

For example, I have a colleague with whom we are very close, called Valerie. In France, she would never be called 'Val' and 'Valoche' is rather pejorative.

My name is Renaud. In France, nobody would have the idea to call me Ron r Ronny.

It's actually very strange because other names are more easily shortened. Clémentine becomes Clem, Dominique, Domi, Stephane, Steph'...

Despite your great writing skill is it possible you are not native-born to an English country? Yesterday I something triggered in a post of yours that suggested that. It's all to say that you are quite gifted linguisticlly. Anyway as my previous posting about the sound/pronunciation points out, it can matter. In your French example, however, could it not be the case that Americans have the custom of soon shifting to nicknames informally than in the case of French people? Europeans tend to be more formal than are US Americans. Personal name usage is a very good example.

And yes, you are right, I was born in Saint-Brieuc, Britanny, France.

When I was younger, I had a lot of correspondence with Anglo-Saxons. My direct experience of life in the US is limited to a one month trip to Washington DC and Salt Lake, Utah.

So, yes you are right, I am certainly not an expert in the idiomatic science of American customs.

So my writing is probably a bit heavy and clumsy. My apologies for that.

And yes, you're right, I think Europeans are more formal than Americans, except maybe in the case of the Spanish.

[Mark de Croix]

I am quite attracted to Pahonu's idea of pronunciation constraints. For me this is the right answer.
Of course, in the classical way in France, the full first name (except if it is definitely too long) is much more used by respect especially at the beginning of a relationship. Afterwards, with a little more intimacy, the diminutive can happen but it is rather rare except for teenagers and young adults.

But it varies a lot with the first name.

For example, I have a colleague with whom we are very close, called Valerie. In France, she would never be called 'Val' and 'Valoche' is rather pejorative.

My name is Renaud. In France, nobody would have the idea to call me Ron r Ronny.

It's actually very strange because other names are more easily shortened. Clémentine becomes Clem, Dominique, Domi, Stephane, Steph'...

Despite your great writing skill is it possible you are not native-born to an English country? Yesterday I something triggered in a post of yours that suggested that. It's all to say that you are quite gifted linguisticlly. Anyway as my previous posting about the sound/pronunciation points out, it can matter. In your French example, however, could it not be the case that Americans have the custom of soon shifting to nicknames informally than in the case of French people? Europeans tend to be more formal than are US Americans. Personal name usage is a very good example.

And yes, you are right, I was born in Saint-Brieuc, Britanny, France.

When I was younger, I had a lot of correspondence with Anglo-Saxons. My direct experience of life in the US is limited to a one month trip to Washington DC and Salt Lake, Utah.

So, yes you are right, I am certainly not an expert in the idiomatic science of American customs.

So my writing is probably a bit heavy and clumsy. My apologies for that.

And yes, you're right, I think Europeans are more formal than Americans, except maybe in the case of the Spanish.

Please forgive me. I should apologize not you. Being new, I thought you were all well acquainted and seemingly all of an English background. In fact, throughout your writing was native as anyone's. Indeed you attained an incredibly high skill without extensive life here (maybe not in UK etc. as you don't seem influenced by Brit. Eng.). When I see such I always feel wow because I never quite got so high in the languages I studied including French

Only because something very minute and only momentary gave me that feeling just before we were discussing lang./culture differences. As you were speaking intimately about French usage, I wouldn't want to challenge a native speaker, would I. And I guess the others knew already. So clumsy me interjected that.

Anyway it is easy to see you are thoughtful and well spoken. I can only raise my glass of champagne to your admirable accomplishments and cheer you on. Moreover I wish to say additionally how grand it is that you come from outside of North America and equally share our love of MPI. Having an international forum is so much more.

[Mark de Croix]

Ok, I guess the gig is up and I should present the reason for Thomas not Tom. It goes back to the fact that TM is not only Thomas but Thomas III. A likely scenario of his life is this: Sometime in his early age, he was living in an extended family arrangement--grandparents and immediate family. This meant that there were three people with the same name. As a result, the grandmother devised this remedy: She would call these three males in the following ways:
1 Tom, for her husband
2 Thomas for her son (already likely the custom so as to differentiate the two;
3 Little Thomas for TM (Tommy could have been used but wasn't; maybe still too confusing.)

But this not all. TM's siblings in the home called him merely "Thomas" because it was well understood. But they couldn't call him "Tom" because this was reserved for the most honored in the household. Contrarily kids in the neighborhood all knew TM as simply "Tom" though sometimes "Magnum" when angry. Because of age difference, rarely were TM's siblings enjoined with play with his friends. But on those rare occasions they used "Tom" in keeping with the neighborhood norm of using nicknames for people.

Ok, so far so good, right? What happens later in TM's young adulthood is that both Thomas and Tom are equally fine. In fact, Thomas may even have deeper emotional attachment because that was his name within his family growing up. It so happens that TM already going by "Tom" as the custom in the US, lives with an uncle and his family due to a conflict in his immediate family. His uncle (modernistic) and four of his five children use Tom with him. However, his aunt, native-born to Ireland and so perhaps a bit conservative, asked him what name was he called in his family at home. "Thomas," he replied. So that became what the aunt used and the 5th child followed--he being the middle child and highly protected by the aunt.

While TM's best friend at the "Point" apparently used "Tom" with him by virtue of the fact that the friend's little sister also, he can equally feel fine by Thomas if used by intimates. Indeed this is helpful because sometimes social distance is needed with subordinates. Even if they use the formal name of Thomas, TM still feels intimacy based on his history. Thus, in MPI Rick states that TM was the CO for both Rick and TC. TM could say, you can call me Thomas while satisfying intimacy needs but still maintaining some formal social relations. No one ever flinched especially TM and "Thomas" just stuck going forward.

Everyone, this my story: My real name is Markson Sullivan de Croix. Basically my life dovetailed with TM's above and I lived first-hand in those households as described. Originally I was LIttle Markson by my grandmother, etc. I believe most people who became the III-generation with the same name in a family likely had similar experience!

[Mark de Croix]

Correction of my last post: I intended to say "full" name not "real" as was written. Pity me to have a mouthful of a name.

Thanks Guys!

[Gorilla Mask]

First of all, I must thank you for your appreciation, here I feel accepted and that's what counts. I am probably not as knowledgeable or relevant as some and some subtleties escape me but that is not the point.

You talk about your story, I'll tell you a little bit about mine.

When I was a child, until the age of 11, I was often sick and often had to stay in bed at home. This was obviously not much fun for a little boy who would have preferred to play with his friends and run around, or even go to school!

And that's where Magnum PI comes in. I didn't know much about the USA except for the worried looks of my father who was, in a way, in the front row of the war of nerves that opposed the Reagan administration to the Politburo in the years 1981-1984. We forget it a little today, but the Euromissile crisis has left very bad memories in our country and probably even more so in Germany.

And then each episode of the show on Sunday afternoon brought me my dose of escape, a kind of window on a world, certainly not real, dramatized, but which brought me presence and comfort.

So much for my little story.

Otherwise, regarding your thesis, it is indeed very interesting and perfectly logical. I hadn't thought of it, it's a good thing you did.

IN the episode guide, i found the following footnote (4.1 "Home from the sea"):

"At the funeral, Magnum's father is referred to as Thomas Sullivan Magnum Senior. In "Resolutions (1)" (8.12), the last episode of the series, we learn that Magnum's grandfather (on his father's side) is also named Thomas Sullivan Magnum, and apparently so is his father. Thus, using the finale as canon, Magnum's correct full name is Thomas Sullivan Magnum IV."

[Mark de Croix]

First of all, I must thank you for your appreciation, here I feel accepted and that's what counts. I am probably not as knowledgeable or relevant as some and some subtleties escape me but that is not the point.

You talk about your story, I'll tell you a little bit about mine.

When I was a child, until the age of 11, I was often sick and often had to stay in bed at home. This was obviously not much fun for a little boy who would have preferred to play with his friends and run around, or even go to school!

And that's where Magnum PI comes in. I didn't know much about the USA except for the worried looks of my father who was, in a way, in the front row of the war of nerves that opposed the Reagan administration to the Politburo in the years 1981-1984. We forget it a little today, but the Euromissile crisis has left very bad memories in our country and probably even more so in Germany.

And then each episode of the show on Sunday afternoon brought me my dose of escape, a kind of window on a world, certainly not real, dramatized, but which brought me presence and comfort.

So much for my little story.

Otherwise, regarding your thesis, it is indeed very interesting and perfectly logical. I hadn't thought of it, it's a good thing you did.

IN the episode guide, i found the following footnote (4.1 "Home from the sea"):

"At the funeral, Magnum's father is referred to as Thomas Sullivan Magnum Senior. In "Resolutions (1)" (8.12), the last episode of the series, we learn that Magnum's grandfather (on his father's side) is also named Thomas Sullivan Magnum, and apparently so is his father. Thus, using the finale as canon, Magnum's correct full name is Thomas Sullivan Magnum IV."

Thanks for your sharing, Gorilla Mask. You had a big challenge in your early age, which I trust you overcame and reached full health. Thank God. It''s particularly sad when a child has misfortune. Those were perilous times you lived through being thrust into the middle of the Cold War. Amazingly the world survived. It's great that MPI could help cheer you up. It does me even now.

The item about the funeral typically, if in printed matter, would be formal and so use full names. Maybe the show "ran on its own" leading the creators to overlook the generational detail of "IV." I checked the return home episode but I don't believe either Thomas or Tom was heard in the dialog. But then again, the creators might have a different reason for TM to use Thomas informally. In the US some devout Christians will not use a nickname in favor of the full form, particularly if a Christian name. Cheers

[Mark de Croix]

News Flash: In "The Taking of Dick McWilliams" (S2.10 ) we hear a good friend of TM's refer to him as "Tom." TM met him ten years prior in Oahu. They are rather good friends how TM talks about him. This instance is particularly interesting because this friend does not come from TM's early life but well into TM's adulthood and in the Navy during peacetime.

This friendship was formed much later than TM's with TC & Rick. So why don't these guys also use "Tom," especially so because their relations were formed during wartime, a harrowing experience likely to bond people together? The difference is that TM's relation with Dick was likely chosen by TM whereas those with TC & Rick were not. The latter were first thrown together by the war with TM as the CO, the other two's superior.

TM probably wanting to acquiesce to American informality but at the same time maintain some professional distance, allowed his men to call him "Thomas," a name that actually carries with it intimacy for TM (see the explanation earlier in this thread). TM and Dick could have been Navy officers together--equals. That and TM's choice of friendship may explain being known as "Tom" to Dick. As a result at the same time and relatively the same place, TM goes by two different names with different people--Thomas and Tom!

[Little Garwood]

Luther Gillis refers to TM as “Tom Magnum.”

[Mark de Croix]

Thanks for the intel. Who is Luther Gillis and his MO.

[Mark de Croix]

The plot thickens: In "The Last Page" (S2.20) character Taylor directly calls TM, "Tom." They were not friends but had a mutual friend in TC. At this point, TM is working for Taylor, so more a professional relation. At this emotional moment Taylor reverts to the cultural default--use of nicknames for others. Yet in the same episode Rick in a war flashback refers to TM as "my buddy, Thomas." At that time TM really was less a buddy than Rick's CO, for wartime must surely make military rank positions rigid. Such is ripe for discussion.

[Gorilla Mask]

The plot thickens: In "The Last Page" (S2.20) character Taylor directly calls TM, "Tom." They were not friends but had a mutual friend in TC. At this point, TM is working for Taylor, so more a professional relation. At this emotional moment Taylor reverts to the cultural default--use of nicknames for others. Yet in the same episode Rick in a war flashback refers to TM as "my buddy, Thomas." At that time TM really was less a buddy than Rick's CO, for wartime must surely make military rank positions rigid. Such is ripe for discussion.

In this episode one can wonder about the state of psychological fragility of Taylor. Also, I feel that he uses the diminutive 'Tom' to create a kind of forced proximity with TM. TM, finally, distrusts him a little, so for Taylor it is a way, a little futile, to keep his confidence.

No ?

[Mark de Croix]

The plot thickens: In "The Last Page" (S2.20) character Taylor directly calls TM, "Tom." They were not friends but had a mutual friend in TC. At this point, TM is working for Taylor, so more a professional relation. At this emotional moment Taylor reverts to the cultural default--use of nicknames for others. Yet in the same episode Rick in a war flashback refers to TM as "my buddy, Thomas." At that time TM really was less a buddy than Rick's CO, for wartime must surely make military rank positions rigid. Such is ripe for discussion.

In this episode one can wonder about the state of psychological fragility of Taylor. Also, I feel that he uses the diminutive 'Tom' to create a kind of forced proximity with TM. TM, finally, distrusts him a little, so for Taylor it is a way, a little futile, to keep his confidence.

No ?

You absolutely make a great point. Taylor may strategically have used "Tom" as a way to narrow social distance thereby helping him get TM's assistance in his plan. Unknowing to Taylor, and as I have been saying, to TM both "Thomas" and "Tom" represent intimacy. We can't know which would apply more, social strategy or cultural default, in this case. But GM your point must be accepted as an equal alternative! I am particularly interested in your sense of TM's distrust of Taylor. When did you feel it?

[Gorilla Mask]

The plot thickens: In "The Last Page" (S2.20) character Taylor directly calls TM, "Tom." They were not friends but had a mutual friend in TC. At this point, TM is working for Taylor, so more a professional relation. At this emotional moment Taylor reverts to the cultural default--use of nicknames for others. Yet in the same episode Rick in a war flashback refers to TM as "my buddy, Thomas." At that time TM really was less a buddy than Rick's CO, for wartime must surely make military rank positions rigid. Such is ripe for discussion.

In this episode one can wonder about the state of psychological fragility of Taylor. Also, I feel that he uses the diminutive 'Tom' to create a kind of forced proximity with TM. TM, finally, distrusts him a little, so for Taylor it is a way, a little futile, to keep his confidence.

No ?

You absolutely make a great point. Taylor may strategically have used "Tom" as a way to narrow social distance thereby helping him get TM's assistance in his plan. Unknowing to Taylor, and as I have been saying, to TM both "Thomas" and "Tom" represent intimacy. We can't know which would apply more, social strategy or cultural default, in this case. But GM your point must be accepted as an equal alternative! I am particularly interested in your sense of TM's distrust of Taylor. When did you feel it?

Hey Mark, To answer i need to re-watch that particular episode. Will come back to you then.