property/seawall article

[Styles Bitchley]

Good to hear from you Styles! It’s been a little while. My father and most of his friends were in the trades and now I teach in an architecture and engineering academy at my high school. It was almost inevitable just by absorption!

I'm around. It's been a busy summer working from home and being home camp counsellor for my kids! Even when I'm not here, I'm here in spirit! This article is a pretty interesting read, btw.

All I can say positively about the pandemic and quarantine is: so glad I have adult children!

Looking forward to that day!

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

Wow, Pahonu. Again you're a treasure trove of valuable info. Thanks! You know, if Obama/Nesbitt ever sell this property we can commission you to redo the estate to the way it was originally, down to the very last detail. There's no one here who knows every nook and cranny of that estate like you do! Plus your architectural knowledge is second to none!

KHale, thanks for those pics. I take it you visited the islands just before corona hit. Yes I can see that long piece of iron sticking out. Makes sense that's what kept that seawall lip in place. It certainly doesn't look like rebar but if that's the original piece of iron from 1928 then maybe that's what they used back then. Don't know when rebar started being used, I'm sure Pahonu does.

[K Hale]

Wow, Pahonu. Again you're a treasure trove of valuable info. Thanks! You know, if Obama/Nesbitt ever sell this property we can commission you to redo the estate to the way it was originally, down to the very last detail. There's no one here who knows every nook and cranny of that estate like you do! Plus your architectural knowledge is second to none!

KHale, thanks for those pics. I take it you visited the islands just before corona hit. Yes I can see that long piece of iron sticking out. Makes sense that's what kept that seawall lip in place. It certainly doesn't look like rebar but if that's the original piece of iron from 1928 then maybe that's what they used back then. Don't know when rebar started being used, I'm sure Pahonu does.

My question is how did it come to be sticking out of the wall like that. I was also there in February 2019 and there was nothing sticking out of the wall. It looks to me like somebody busted into the wall, grabbed hold of that piece of iron, and pulled, except I don’t see how it could’ve been done by hand.

[Amian]

It’s a classic example of private property rights versus the public good.

This is an important point, and I think it takes on even more importance in Hawaii, where the establishment of private property rights is relatively recent and contentious.

I saw a post or two about pursuit of property rights as constitutional. I assume that means there is legal precedent for interpreting a foundational document, yes? Pursuit of property didn't make it into the final draft of the Declaration of Independence, but apparently it was part of earlier drafts and was likely a major point for some of the framers.

Assuming there are loads of legal precedents, then does it become a question of whether or not Hawaii is able to use state authority to prioritize public rights (i.e., maintenance of coastline as a public trust open to all)? I imagine public good takes precedence, but clearly there are exceptions that can be made, as described in the article.

[Pahonu]

It’s a classic example of private property rights versus the public good.

This is an important point, and I think it takes on even more importance in Hawaii, where the establishment of private property rights is relatively recent and contentious.

I saw a post or two about pursuit of property rights as constitutional. I assume that means there is legal precedent for interpreting a foundational document, yes? Pursuit of property didn't make it into the final draft of the Declaration of Independence, but apparently it was part of earlier drafts and was likely a major point for some of the framers.

Assuming there are loads of legal precedents, then does it become a question of whether or not Hawaii is able to use state authority to prioritize public rights (i.e., maintenance of coastline as a public trust open to all)? I imagine public good takes precedence, but clearly there are exceptions that can be made, as described in the article.

While Jefferson ultimately changed Locke’s “pursuit of property” to “pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration, the Constitution does protect property rights through the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments’ Due Process Clauses. It also does so more directly, through the Fifth Amendment’s Takings Clause: “nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.” There is a long history of the use of eminent domain by federal, state, and local governments to establish public projects, supported by court rulings. This example appears to be different. Here, the state law about protecting beaches for the public good has not been pursued by the state, rather individual property rights were given priority. The legislation is in place, but exceptions have been granted, as you stated. Much of the newspaper article focused on why Mrs. Anderson received one of the apparently rare exceptions.

[Pahonu]

Wow, Pahonu. Again you're a treasure trove of valuable info. Thanks! You know, if Obama/Nesbitt ever sell this property we can commission you to redo the estate to the way it was originally, down to the very last detail. There's no one here who knows every nook and cranny of that estate like you do! Plus your architectural knowledge is second to none!

KHale, thanks for those pics. I take it you visited the islands just before corona hit. Yes I can see that long piece of iron sticking out. Makes sense that's what kept that seawall lip in place. It certainly doesn't look like rebar but if that's the original piece of iron from 1928 then maybe that's what they used back then. Don't know when rebar started being used, I'm sure Pahonu does.

Here you go:

Steel reinforcing, or rebar, has been used in concrete construction since the second half of the 19th century. Concrete has good compressive strength but relatively poor tensile strength so they are used in combination in what is called reinforced masonry. This was common practice at the time of Pahonu’s construction. It works very, well but there are some environments where it is more vulnerable. The problem here is that saltwater environments dramatically speed up the rusting of the rebar as water infiltrates the concrete. I can personally attest to this as the marine-grade stainless steel components on my boat still ultimately show rust in just a few years, and lesser quality steels, like on our bikes show rust in just months.

Today, the rebar would be epoxy coated before the concrete was poured to protect it from saltwater and rust. I saw literally tons of bright green epoxy-coated rebar during the construction of a large retail project at the marina across from mine a couple of years ago. It was used in massive caissons all over the project as well as in the concrete floors. This material coating didn’t exist when Pahonu was built so protection had to be provided by either sealing or painting the concrete on the outside. This seems to have been neglected in recent years and we are seeing the results.

[Amian]

While Jefferson ultimately changed Locke’s “pursuit of property” to “pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration, the Constitution does protect property rights through the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments’ Due Process Clauses. It also does so more directly, through the Fifth Amendment’s Takings Clause: “nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.”

Got it, thanks!

There is a long history of the use of eminent domain by federal, state, and local governments to establish public projects, supported by court rulings. This example appears to be different. Here, the state law about protecting beaches for the public good has not been pursued by the state, rather individual property rights were given priority. The legislation is in place, but exceptions have been granted, as you stated. Much of the newspaper article focused on why Mrs. Anderson received one of the apparently rare exceptions.

Yes, this is what I was trying to figure out. Can the state's authority to support rights for the public good override legal precedents (and clauses like those you mention) that reinforce individual property rights? Maybe the question should be *will* the state do so? If they can but don't, there have to be reasons...

[Pahonu]

While Jefferson ultimately changed Locke’s “pursuit of property” to “pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration, the Constitution does protect property rights through the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments’ Due Process Clauses. It also does so more directly, through the Fifth Amendment’s Takings Clause: “nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.”

Got it, thanks!

There is a long history of the use of eminent domain by federal, state, and local governments to establish public projects, supported by court rulings. This example appears to be different. Here, the state law about protecting beaches for the public good has not been pursued by the state, rather individual property rights were given priority. The legislation is in place, but exceptions have been granted, as you stated. Much of the newspaper article focused on why Mrs. Anderson received one of the apparently rare exceptions.

Yes, this is what I was trying to figure out. Can the state's authority to support rights for the public good override legal precedents (and clauses like those you mention) that reinforce individual property rights? Maybe the question should be *will* the state do so? If they can but don't, there have to be reasons...

Your question seems to be at the center of the article. The state has the legislation to prevent any new sea wall construction. It seems to be doing so for the most part. However, the exceptions being made for existing sea walls are in question. The article explains that the granting of these is quite rare, 120 in 20 years. The question becomes how they decide who gets these exemptions. The article seem to suggest that political influence and money are playing a bigger role than the science in those decisions. That’s not really too surprising actually. Sad but true.

[Amian]

Your question seems to be at the center of the article. The state has the legislation to prevent any new sea wall construction. It seems to be doing so for the most part. However, the exceptions being made for existing sea walls are in question. The article explains that the granting of these is quite rare, 120 in 20 years. The question becomes how they decide who gets these exemptions. The article seem to suggest that political influence and money are playing a bigger role than the science in those decisions. That’s not really too surprising actually. Sad but true.

Sad but true is right. I can't help but wonder if this issue is magnified when the individual in question is a wealthy (kind of?) outsider from Chicago in Marty Nesbitt and the residents of the area are primarily native Hawaiians.

Also 120 in 20 years is pretty rare, but they add up, especially if the rate speeds up, which it could given the oncoming tides.

[ZelenskyTheValiant (Ivan)]

Wow, Pahonu. Again you're a treasure trove of valuable info. Thanks! You know, if Obama/Nesbitt ever sell this property we can commission you to redo the estate to the way it was originally, down to the very last detail. There's no one here who knows every nook and cranny of that estate like you do! Plus your architectural knowledge is second to none!

KHale, thanks for those pics. I take it you visited the islands just before corona hit. Yes I can see that long piece of iron sticking out. Makes sense that's what kept that seawall lip in place. It certainly doesn't look like rebar but if that's the original piece of iron from 1928 then maybe that's what they used back then. Don't know when rebar started being used, I'm sure Pahonu does.

Here you go:

Steel reinforcing, or rebar, has been used in concrete construction since the second half of the 19th century. Concrete has good compressive strength but relatively poor tensile strength so they are used in combination in what is called reinforced masonry. This was common practice at the time of Pahonu’s construction. It works very, well but there are some environments where it is more vulnerable. The problem here is that saltwater environments dramatically speed up the rusting of the rebar as water infiltrates the concrete. I can personally attest to this as the marine-grade stainless steel components on my boat still ultimately show rust in just a few years, and lesser quality steels, like on our bikes show rust in just months.

Today, the rebar would be epoxy coated before the concrete was poured to protect it from saltwater and rust. I saw literally tons of bright green epoxy-coated rebar during the construction of a large retail project at the marina across from mine a couple of years ago. It was used in massive caissons all over the project as well as in the concrete floors. This material coating didn’t exist when Pahonu was built so protection had to be provided by either sealing or painting the concrete on the outside. This seems to have been neglected in recent years and we are seeing the results.

I knew you'd have the answer, Pahonu. But is that piece of iron at Pahonu still considered rebar? The modern rebar that I'm used to seeing is circular in shape with circular grooves all around: https://bit.ly/3lnH1hD but perhaps that's what rebar looked like back in the day? To me it just looks like an angular piece of iron.

[Pahonu]

Wow, Pahonu. Again you're a treasure trove of valuable info. Thanks! You know, if Obama/Nesbitt ever sell this property we can commission you to redo the estate to the way it was originally, down to the very last detail. There's no one here who knows every nook and cranny of that estate like you do! Plus your architectural knowledge is second to none!

KHale, thanks for those pics. I take it you visited the islands just before corona hit. Yes I can see that long piece of iron sticking out. Makes sense that's what kept that seawall lip in place. It certainly doesn't look like rebar but if that's the original piece of iron from 1928 then maybe that's what they used back then. Don't know when rebar started being used, I'm sure Pahonu does.

Here you go:

Steel reinforcing, or rebar, has been used in concrete construction since the second half of the 19th century. Concrete has good compressive strength but relatively poor tensile strength so they are used in combination in what is called reinforced masonry. This was common practice at the time of Pahonu’s construction. It works very, well but there are some environments where it is more vulnerable. The problem here is that saltwater environments dramatically speed up the rusting of the rebar as water infiltrates the concrete. I can personally attest to this as the marine-grade stainless steel components on my boat still ultimately show rust in just a few years, and lesser quality steels, like on our bikes show rust in just months.

Today, the rebar would be epoxy coated before the concrete was poured to protect it from saltwater and rust. I saw literally tons of bright green epoxy-coated rebar during the construction of a large retail project at the marina across from mine a couple of years ago. It was used in massive caissons all over the project as well as in the concrete floors. This material coating didn’t exist when Pahonu was built so protection had to be provided by either sealing or painting the concrete on the outside. This seems to have been neglected in recent years and we are seeing the results.

I knew you'd have the answer, Pahonu. But is that piece of iron at Pahonu still considered rebar? The modern rebar that I'm used to seeing is circular in shape with circular grooves all around: https://bit.ly/3lnH1hD but perhaps that's what rebar looked like back in the day? To me it just looks like an angular piece of iron.

I don’t really know the shape of reinforcing steel a century ago. Construction materials are very standardized and rated for strength now so they can easily be spec’d on a job. That standardization has largely been post-WWII. I do know iron was first used but it’s more vulnerable to rusting than steel and was replaced in the 19th century.

[Pahonu]

Your question seems to be at the center of the article. The state has the legislation to prevent any new sea wall construction. It seems to be doing so for the most part. However, the exceptions being made for existing sea walls are in question. The article explains that the granting of these is quite rare, 120 in 20 years. The question becomes how they decide who gets these exemptions. The article seem to suggest that political influence and money are playing a bigger role than the science in those decisions. That’s not really too surprising actually. Sad but true.

Sad but true is right. I can't help but wonder if this issue is magnified when the individual in question is a wealthy (kind of?) outsider from Chicago in Marty Nesbitt and the residents of the area are primarily native Hawaiians.

Also 120 in 20 years is pretty rare, but they add up, especially if the rate speeds up, which it could given the oncoming tides.

The article said Marty Nesbitt hasn’t yet gotten the permission for the sea wall reinforcement. The huge environmental study had to be done first. That’s complete now and I assume they’re waiting to be granted permits. I was referring to Eve Anderson, who was granted permission, before she could sell it, for the sea walls to remain for another 55 years. She is a former state representative, which raised some eyebrows, and she paid $60,000+ dollars as a “lease” to keep them because part of the sea walls are on state land. If she was not granted that permission, it’s likely the, then unprotected property, would have been sold at a significantly reduced price and not developed in the same way at all.